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Xiphias Gladius

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By the way, I DO divide the world into "good guys" and "bad guys". [Aug. 19th, 2010|05:52 pm]
Xiphias Gladius
Just so you know: if you're against the building of an Islamic community center in Downtown Manhattan, you're one of the bad guys.

If you are saying, "well, sure, they have the LEGAL right to do it, but by putting it there, they're just being provocative," then you may not be particularly evil yourself, but you're intimidated by the evil people into being one of their henchmen. People doing completely normal things like building community centers aren't being provocative. The people who you are afraid they will provoke? Those are the bad guys. And if you are saying that they should modify their behaviors to do what the bad guys want, then you are saying that you support the bad guys.

And that means that you're one of the bad guys.

And THAT means that I find you a danger to me, personally. I'm Jewish. Right now, Jews are mostly considered more or less white. But that could change. And the second it does, people will start saying things like, "Well, sure, they COULD build a synagogue there, but wouldn't that just be asking for trouble?"

Everything that people are saying about the downtown Manhattan community center, I just automatically hear people saying that about something that I might want to do someday. If you're against them, then you're against me, and you're also against justice, freedom, and every ideal that this country stands for.

Just so we're clear on that.

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[User Picture]From: filkerdave
2010-08-19 10:25 pm (UTC)
For a great many people in today's America, ANY Islamic center anywhere on the North American continent is too close to Ground Zero and will lead to bad feelings.

If you follow that sort of logic, you don't end up getting to build your center anywhere.
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[User Picture]From: fauxklore
2010-08-19 10:32 pm (UTC)
How far away is far enough? There are actually currently two mosques that are closer to Ground Zero than this one.

As a Jew and the daughter of a Shoah survivor, I am well aware that my mere existence offends certain people. I refuse to hide as a result and I refuse to force anybody else to hide.
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[User Picture]From: ron_newman
2010-08-19 11:42 pm (UTC)
I didn't know that, actually -- can you tell us more about those other two mosques
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[User Picture]From: fauxklore
2010-08-20 12:08 am (UTC)
Actually, I was misinterpreting the news story I read, but there are two definitely within the neighborhood:


Both are overflowing and it was clear that there is a need amongst the Islamic communities for a mosque in that neighborhood.

There are also Islamic services every Friday in the Pentagon chapel. And, in fact, the chapel is in the part of the Pentagon that was hit - less than 100 feet away.
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[User Picture]From: voltbang
2010-08-20 03:33 am (UTC)
There are other mosques nearby. This is not a mosque, it is a community center, that contains a mosque. And here's the key, they are not adding a mosque, they are replacing an existing facility. There is already a facility there that functions as a mosque. They are not adding a mosque, they are adding a swimming pool.

Why is there fear and risk? Because certain public figures turned this into an issue. It's a non-issue, but politicaly minded people turned it into one. Go to ground zero, and walk to the location of this project. You will see more halal food carts that you will know what to do with. Islam is strongly represented there, like so many other cultures. It's new york. Will they back down? They are New Yorkers, ok, they are muslim new yorkers but they are new yorkers. Back down because they are afraid of offending someone?

If you move a community center out of the community, can you still call it a community center?
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[User Picture]From: xiphias
2010-08-20 10:32 am (UTC)
It doesn't matter WHERE they build a Muslim community center. The terrorist thugs who are willing to attack Muslims will attack them no matter what. Build it on the Moon, it will STILL be a target for violence.

It's the same risk. It doesn't matter. Putting it somewhere else won't make it safer. People who equate all Muslims with terrorists aren't going to care WHERE the Muslims are.
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[User Picture]From: xiphias
2010-08-19 11:18 pm (UTC)
If I were the Muslim community, I'd build my community center where there was room, and that was convenient for my community to get to.

Which is what they're doing, as far as I can tell. It's not like there are a whole lot of buildable locations in downtown Manhattan.
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[User Picture]From: pixelfish
2010-09-15 09:10 pm (UTC)
Yeah, that's what I don't get. Folks saying, Well, they should built it further away....but when you ask them where they think that is, it's always weirdly untenable distances. My Mormon/right-wing-inclined family has said stuff like, well, not in New York proper, or maybe a few miles away would be better...and I want to head-desk and say, "You're asking people who live in a particular community to build their community center OUTSIDE the community? AWAY from the community?" They don't seem to get that they're making pronouncements about an existing community wanting to erect a space they can easily access.
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[User Picture]From: trinker
2010-08-19 11:29 pm (UTC)
Well, sure if she wants to go out dressed like that, and have a drink...

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[User Picture]From: lilairen
2010-08-20 04:21 am (UTC)
It appears mostly to be provoking the fringe of American xenophobes who would be quite happy if their hatefulness leads to some Fine Upstanding Citizen chucking a bomb into the place. You know, the sort of criminals who nobody will actually call "terrorists" because they're white.
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[User Picture]From: vvalkyri
2010-08-20 02:50 pm (UTC)
An interesting twist is that the site was chosen because of it being so close to WTC, and having been a building into which the wreckage fell:
The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.”

“We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61


I found that quote by accident; the blogger pointing to it was displeased in that the NYTimes article originally included another line, "New York is the capital of the world, and this location close to 9/11 is iconic", and now does not.
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[User Picture]From: fridgepunk
2010-09-17 06:27 pm (UTC)
The problem here is that 1, these bigots are choosing to be "provoked" by the community center, and 2, the bigots are actually just attacking the center as a politically correct proxy for their attacks on the community that is being served by the center itself.

If it wasn't the community center it'd be something else, because the existence of the community, not the center, is what is "provoking them" in the sense of "provoke" that the klan or transphobes or rapists use to justify their criminal acts.

So why not build a center that will fulfill the needs of the community if anything they do will piss off these idiots? Remember that the people complaining about the center believe that calling Obama a muslims is an insult because it portrays him as an evil terrorist who wants to destroy america.

In their minds.

The only way to pander to those being "provoked" is to kick all the muslims out of america.

Which isn't acceptable.

So fuck them.
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